Welcome and Guest Introduction------------------------------[0:15] Well, welcome again my friends to Show Me Yours. I am Rihanna Werner, your co-host along with Jason Sheffield. Hey everyone, thank you for joining us again. I am here with probably one of the biggest mavericks of our community. An individual who has successfully curved through curved his carved his path through curves and momentum, race cars, medical devices. Yeah, it may it makes sense. It makes sense. And then somehow he decides that publishing is his thing. Durk Hobbs. Hi. The publisher of Colorado Media Group. I can sit here and try and rattle off[1:09] all of his publications, his podcast, his TV. your media empire that you've been building is so far wide and deep. I'm embarrassed to even try to attempt to list them off. But I will say this that we at Savvion are avid sponsors of at least the Southern Colorado Business Digest and Forum. That is such a long name. Yeah. What's the story behind that? Why is it so damn long? Just go to BFD.[1:43] Yes. Yes. You know, I actually have a friend who has that LLC. Yeah, he does. Yeah.[1:48] Excellent. Well, we like him already. That's another story. He's incredible. He sits on a school board, too. Oh, good. Yeah,[1:54] he's got a sense of humor and a long thread of patience. SoWhy the Business Digest Exists------------------------------[2:00] the story on the digest you know when we were coming into the market with North and other publications you know we obviously read the business journal and some of the business communicate throughout the region and listen to the business news on radio and television and there really wasn't a lot of depth right I mean it was pretty shallow in terms of coverage and depth of coverage when you're trying to position your region as a go-to resource or a go-to destination for employers, okay? They just didn't have the depth. I mean, we talked to Molly and her[2:39] little pet store and how she likes to wear Birkenstocks on Tuesdays to the shop and bring her little dog with her. That's not really business news, okay? It's a nice community story, but it's not business news. And so when you think[2:53] about what Colorado Springs or southern Colorado is on a national level, you'd be surprised at what the perception is of our region. It's well, what is our perception? It's underwhelming actually. Okay. It's not bad. It's just underwhelming. So what makes headlines[3:12] are the church shootings, the Club Q shootings, you know, the Bible thumping kind of guntoten marches and protests that are happening out here some periodically or the big church scene or whatever it is. Not that's a bad thing. It's just but that's what you hear on a national level, right?[3:29] That makes sense. And we have a lovely landscape. We have a worldclass you know outdoor recreational lifestyle but and there's something to do with an academy of some kind and something with military and science. Yeah. And that was the point right is they[3:51] didn't really understand the depth and breadth of what was happening here. much less. Did they understand how many people are actually living here and that we're fastly becoming Colorado's most populated region?[4:03] Yeah. Going to surpass Denver easily within the next several years, probably in the[4:08] early 30s to mid30s, 2030s. So, but we have rich industries like aerospace and[4:15] defense and cyber and advanced manufacturing and quantum computing and all these great sectors. of course, tourism and all the ancillary professional services that you would expect in any given community this size. and a lot of people just didn't have that perception of us. They thought we were a small community, maybe 300,000. Again, a nice pile of dirt in the backyard called Pikes Peak. It's wonderful. It's beautiful. maybe the Broadmore, maybe the academy, and maybe some other little awarenesses, but they really had no idea how deep[4:46] we were here and that we were a center, like you said, five active installations for military and defense. And so, yeah, I said, that's the story we need to be telling, but more than that, we said, you know, there's all these other communities around us that are tied to us and we're tied to them, and we're not talking about them. Pueblo, Walsenburg, Trinidad, Douglas County, you know, Castle Rock and Lone Tree and all those places. And then up into the inner mountain communities where you have Castle or excuse me, Canyon City and[5:18] Woodland Park and the Eastern Plains where you have a lot of agricultural business and things like that. Creek. Creek. Yeah. So, we weren't talking about those things and how they intertwine and how they mesh and how they belong together[5:30] and all kind of raise all boats on a high tide. And so, that's why we launched the digest. But the business journal was still out there. Yeah. So that was owned by Roth and O'Neal.[5:41] Kevin O'Neal and JW Roth who owns the amphitheater. O'Neal owns Catalyst Campus and a myriad of other companies. They only owned it for a short period of time though. I said they only owned it for a short period of time. Yeah. Okay.[5:54] About a year. So, and they just, you know, these guys are very good at what they do. Incredible.[6:00] Incredible entrepreneurs. And of course, you got the amphitheater on the north side of town. And there's there's bigger fish to fry frankly for those two fellas, right? And so they got involved in this and then they said, you know, why don't you come run it for us? And I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. love you guys, but not going to do that, right? I mean, we're we're going to do our own thing. And so about a year later, they called me up and said, "Hey, we'd like to make you an offer. You can't refuse." So I bought the business journal and then we absorbed it as part as the Colorado[6:35] strings portfolio but we've changed the editorial platform to make sure that investors, venture capitalists, private equity as well as CEOs and executives throughout the region would read it. Okay. Yeah, that's the difference. That is that isPublishing Philosophy and Regional Business Coverage----------------------------------------------------[6:51] Yeah. I know we were we've been a sponsors you years past. Actually, the[6:58] Colorado Springs Business Journal in its you know original heyday helped me start my business. Absolutely. one of the sales guys who was employed there. I called when I was writing my business plan. I called to see what the cost of running an ad would be in the paper and he told me my jaw hit the ground. Sure. Yeah. can't afford $1,000 a week.[7:23] Barely got a pot to piss in, right? That's That's right. That's right. And you know what he did?[7:28] He said, "Well, what do you need to do to be able to afford that?" I said, "I have to sell something." And so he called me every single month and said, "How are your sales? How are you doing?" And coached me through selling. And because of that, my relationship with this paper and my undying loyalty to this paper has lived on. Very good. Because of that, it's it's amazing the impact that simple phone call can make. It can for a business. It can if you're not in a boiler room selling, you know, to people. and that's the way we do businesses. We're more consultative than we are just, you know, slamming sales through[8:06] the door. Yes. Because most businesses that, you know, are a handful of people and under 500,000 annually, you know, that takes it takes some bootstrapping and you got to figure it out. But you also have to advertise. You do. You do. Absolutely. So publishing, that is not the easiest business to be in right now. Not at all. What's your philosophy when it comes to make a making a publishing business operation work?[8:35] That's a good question. So a as my skill set is a marketing[8:41] executive by trade. Okay. So I'm degreed in marketing, mass communications, all[8:47] those things. But I'm not a journalist. Actually, I'm a media entrepreneur. Okay? My folks are journalists. Okay? My editors, my writers, my stringers, all those folks, they are journalists, but I don't do that. Okay? I'm capable of conducting an interview, but I'm more of a live format kind of like this. So either radio or television but what I what I observed in our national landscape in our regional and local and state landscape is there's you have to pick a side and if you don't you're going to be marginalized one way or the other. Yeah. Okay. So when we developed the business[9:32] digest it was first of all we're going to wrap our arms around the region because all these communities float each other okay some are bedroom communities some are distribution hubs you know and their little macroeconomies are microeconomies are growing into the greater macroeconomy. Yeah. And then all the parts and pieces fit together. The airport, the utilities, the infrastructure, the water[9:55] conversation, everything plugs in together. How are we doing on affordable health care? How are we doing on affordable housing? How are we doing on access to child care? All those different things, right? Are affecting the way we do business, right? How we're employing people. Are we doing 1099s? Are we doing W2s? Are we doing, you know, how are we structuring our business to position ourselves to be successful downstream, right? for the longer term. But all these external influencers are really playing a role in how we behave as business owners and[10:26] entrepreneurs. And it's hard. It's really hard. Then as you grow in status and in size and scope, then you start to feel the regulatory burden of all the issues facing businesses from the state houses. Yep. And it's like, oh, come on, guys. Really? I mean, why are we doing this to ourselves?[10:44] That's why I have a business, by the way. Sorry. Good for you because you know there's[10:51] and there's plenty of resources in the region starting with the SBA to exponential impact and other places like that where you can get a warm running start on your business plan on developing your concept and a minimal viable product and all those things where you can get to a place where you can say this is good or there's not enough here. It's a nice hobby. but media to your original question was really focused around let's not talk about the political aspects so much. I mean, invariably there's going to be political influences. Y,[11:28] but what reporters on a national and state and even local level tend to focus on is how to get that sizzle line in there, right? how to get that through line on getting our partners, our readers and listeners or viewers to just grab it and tune in night after night. It's almost like the u social media problem we have now, right? It's an addiction of headlines. Yeah. Right. And then you formulate an opinion based on that headline. You[11:56] don't have any real knowledge base. You just have opinions floating around in your head. Okay. Now we are that are a little[12:03] older, we kind of grew up learning how to think and critical thinking and processing and you know qualifs home before the sun went down. How on earth did you survive?[12:19] My kids sure as hell wouldn't. No. No, they wouldn't. I mean, they'd struggle. I have them on life 360. It's terrible on me. It's bad. It's bad. They enable this poor behavior. We do. We do. But I told my writers, and I stole a lot of them from different prominent outlets here in the region, and I said, "Look guys, here's what we're going to do. We're going to go out and we're going to do this old school. Remember those old journalism degrees that you got? We're going to go get the story. We're going to tell the story, and then we're going to show we're going to we're going to showcase the the challenge, the problem, the lessons[12:51] learned, and how they're evolving. four, we're going to showcase how we're growing an ecosystem of like-minded participants, whether it's the school systems or the utilities or the airport or the city of Colorado Springs or whatever it is. I mean, it could be a myriad of things. How are we playing well together in the sandbox, okay? And creating solutions and lifestyle for people. How are we creating a message that says this is a destination for businesses who want to live, work, and do business here. Okay. Yeah. So, we haven't done that well. We're a terrible marketing department,[13:25] right? The the community just doesn't market itself well. So, we've tried we'd have we've had[13:32] different iterations of Olympic City USA and this and that. And those are all great, okay? But they're they're there's a place for them. And then if but if you're an aerospace company, you don't give a flip about, you know, USOPC. They don't care. Okay? or if you're a cyber security company or quantum computing, what you want to know is, do you have the workforce? Do you have the breath and depth, do they have the skill sets I need? Or am I going to have to spend a year and a half educating and informing these people how to work, okay, in a professional[14:03] environment? Okay. Are we competitive pay-wise? Can they afford to live there? Are they going to have to drive to Pueblo[14:09] every night and reside there or Castle Rock or wherever? Probably not that direction. that's more expensive, you know, out east. but you know, what is the what is the concoction that we're offering? Yeah. employers who want to be here aesthetically,[14:29] do we have the under girth, if you will, to support their initial impulse to say, well, maybe Colorado Springs or maybe Pueblo. We do, but we just don't tell that story. Well, so that's why we created the digest to tell that story. And I said, "Guys, that's what our job is, is to effectively position this region by showcasing what's working, what's not working, and what's not working, how we're dealing with it, like affordable housing and childcare access and things like that." I said, "Nobody's going to argue that every city has a problem. What they're going to[15:04] challenge is, how are you dealing with it? Do you have an ex a life outside of work? What is your arts and entertainment world like? What is your restaurant scene like?" you know, what does your, you know, hospitality scene like? What else is there to do? Do you have accessible grocery stores and food and transportation infrastructure, everything? I mean, absolutely. So, you know, this is this is the reason[15:27] we did it and why we absorbed the Colorado Springs Business Journal, and then it's just kind of fizzled away over time. So, now it's officially the Southern Colorado Business Forum and Digest. You've done a great job in thatDepth Over Clickbait--------------------[15:40] transition. Thanks. brought up a phrase that just kind of struck me, the sizzle line. One thing I've noticed with you guys, you guys have done a really good job of balanced reporting and journalism. How do you get that sizzle line without sensationalizing? Yeah, there's got to be a balancing act there. Well, one of the things we do well, we're actually very seldom first to report the story. Okay.[16:09] We're usually better and more complete. That's how we're positioned. So, this we're not as concerned about[16:16] sizzle reels and sizzle lines to get that attraction. Okay. You don't like clickbait? Come on.[16:22] Come on, man. You know, I mean, that's how you pay your electric bill, right? Yes. But yes, I understand the impulse for news organizations to have to do that to create that gravitational pool. Yeah. Right. And they do that with, you know,[16:35] their nightly reporting, the gun and knife club and whatever else happened overnight, you know, but it is it is basically something that, you know, we're all headline readers now. Okay.[16:48] And what I'm challenging the universe basically to do is say, "Wait a minute, you can get information anywhere, but can you get intellectual property? Can you get source verified information to where you understand what the Swire Coca-Cola deal was? Okay. Not a lot of people understand what that means for our community.[17:07] They have no idea. No. Okay. But the Gazette got it out there quick and that's their job. I'm not[17:12] slamming any outlet for what they do. I just don't want to do it that way. Okay. So, there's a role they play and all the[17:19] news organizations say this is what happened in 30 seconds or less. Move on. Move on. Move on. Right. Well, I tend to think that adults want more qualified bonafide information and to understand the why and the how and what's this going to, you know, especially if you own a business. Yeah. Okay. Or operate a business or employee,[17:40] you know, manage employees of any level. You're going to want to know why and how that's going to impact your business. It may not. It may not even get near your business, but it also may. And one of the things we learned real quick was that organizations see Colorado Springs perceptually as not a place where there's enough cluster in various categories where you can if you lose your job over here you can crosswalk to 10 other opportunities. Okay. You can do that in Denver 50 times over. You can do[18:11] it in LA 100 times over. Okay. But in Colorado Springs they didn't think there was more than one or[18:17] two. Yeah. In any given category. Well, that's not true. It's true. Okay, there are there's[18:22] probably 10 or 20. We're just not quite at that level with Denver yet. But when you factor in Douglas County and Pueblo and some of the other hubs in the region in southeast Colorado, there actually is more of a dense population of those opportunities. So, you don't have to relocate to California or Texas or[18:42] somewhere else. You can, of course, but you have the opportunity here in Colorado. Never really thought about it that way originally speaking. Huh. Yeah, it's a region. That's why we did the regional thing because when you put that together, we have the critical[18:54] mass to say, "Yeah, we are a destination." That's fantastic. Cool, huh? It is. It is. How is distribution thoughDistribution and Southern Colorado Reach----------------------------------------[19:02] to those that, you know, the more rural areas down south and Pueblo? I mean, Pablo probably isn't that hard distribution wise, but reaching Walsenburg, Trinidad, I mean, Calhan, rye, wherever. Sure. How is that treating? You know, are you getting the readership? Are you getting the distribution? Of course. I mean, are we, you know, 20,000 in Trinidad? No. You know, there's probably 20,000 people down there. Well, exactly. So, we probably have 5600[19:35] subscribers down there, right? That's pretty good. It's not bad. in Walsenburg, there's probably a couple[19:40] hundred, you know, folks that are reading the paper. And of course, Colorado Springs has the highest concentration. Now, Douglas County is coming into that. And that's probably going to surpass Colorado Springs because those businesses see this region as an opportunity. Oh, yeah. Right. They don't see it as over there. They see southern Colorado as, oh, wait a minute. If we do this and join together, we're going to go up, right? because that particular county in Colorado doesn't necessarily feel buttoned into the Denver thing,[20:12] right? They're still a little more fiscally conservative. There's a lot of DoD there. There's a lot going on in Douglas County. You'd have no idea. Yeah. But as you go out 425, you can see all those commercial, you know, class A[20:26] buildings. They're filled with very sophisticated businesses. And they're looking over the hill there and they're saying, "Wait a minute, Southern Colorado. Hm. Interesting. There's opportunity. I love that because as a native my whole entire life I have spent knowing Colorado is a north facing state. So if you live north, you never go south. No matter where you are located. If you're in Denver, you don't go south. If you're in Castle Rock, you don't go south. If you're in Colorado Springs, you don't go south. If you're in Pueblo, you don't go south. Right? So, it's so[21:02] nice that you're actually getting our state to look south. No matter where you're located, it's about time to unify and say, "Okay, Pueblo is not so bad." No, it's actually gorgeous down there. It is. And the food scene down there, the food houses Colorado Springs by far. I'm down with that. And the farms, it's just it's a hidden gem. And it's such a shame, especially, I think, us natives are to blame. It really is our fault because we've grown up our whole entire lives and I think it's like a little snotty definitely there. We're too good to go south. I was on a conversation this morning[21:41] with a an agency out of Denver and they couldn't spell Colorado Springs and it was like you got to be kidding me. Okay. We ranked in the top five in[21:52] categories that you guys haven't touched in decades, you know, and Yeah. Yeah. I[21:58] don't know, man. What's down there? Well, you need to take a drive and do that due diligence for your clients that you're representing down here. Yeah. Be and find out, get in the market and see what's actually happening here. We[22:10] have NCAA Division One football. We have, you know, other professional sports. No, we're not a five diamond super complex sports complex like Denver, but Denver also has other problems and challenges that we don't want and we'll probably never have down here. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. You're absolutely right. Yeah. So, every community has their problems and you know, we're we're definitely not short of them, but[22:36] I'll take Colorado Springs problems. I will because I wake up to that mountain every morning. Makes it all go away. Makes it all go away. Yeah. I'm from Miami, so that's new to me still. So,[22:47] it's still kind of a unique thing to see that and know that your directional orientation is always, you know, look over there and you know where you are. That's true. I'm curious based on theThe Future Identity of Colorado Springs---------------------------------------[22:59] conversations you're having, what you're seeing. What do you feel like is going to become a bit of a center of kind of that identity piece for Colorado Springs? Like looking ahead, right, we can see where we've been in the past, but if you were to say in five years from now, what do you feel like is the greatest potential for Colorado Springs to continue to become known for? Yeah, that's a great question, Jason, because you know, we've tried the Silicon Mountain thing back in the 80s. That didn't work. We didn't we kind of blew that actually. we weren't ready[23:30] for that level of participation with those kinds of companies out there. you know when Hewlett-Packard came in here I mean that was a big deal. Wow. Right. Was like so like that was that was Silicon Mountain right the intel plant that really never manifested. That's correct. I remember when that I remember the guy that was actually doing[23:53] the CAD drawings for that building. Really? I grew up in Mountain Shadow. So I was there watching the whole thing get developed. Saw it go up. Yes. In college. I worked security on that construction site for about two weeks. I sat in a truck and studied pretty much the whole Oh yeah. The whole thing. Yeah. And talked to traveling plumbers[24:13] and electricians. And I didn't last long though. It was a really shitty security. Amen, sister. Right on. But to your question, you know, and we try we're trying the Olympic City thing, right?[24:26] And you know, what is our identity? We, you know, and I understand where that manifested and where that emerged from. And it there was a lot of good in it. And I think it created some stickiness for the NGBs that are here, of course, the USOPC, the museum now, and of course, the training center. Those are great assets to have in your backyard, but you know, they're kind of isolated. Yeah. Right. I mean, what's been your interaction with besides the museum with[24:56] any of those entities, right? So, one's a pass on the incline by an Olympian[25:02] obnoxious like they're they're here too. There goes Apollo again. And I'm still only 40 feet up. Yeah. Exactly. So, but yes, I think it does feel like the common person can't really connect[25:15] to kind of the Olympic element, right? It's it's an elite class, if you will. It's an elite class of athletes and it's an it's a very elite culture, but by the same token, okay, it is something that we can sink our teeth into. I just don't know that's the whole platter. Yeah. Okay. I think we have a lot more to[25:32] offer. And I know the EDC is constantly reminded about what who and what are we right how do we identify ourselves and I think we've got some great leadership at the EDC right now with Janna Rita Claymire and other chamber leaders in the region and other EDC executives in the region from Douglas all the way down to Trinidad who are having material conversations about how do we position Southeast Colorado for a couple of reasons. Number one, a more effective and critical mass voice up at the legislature. Okay. Right now, it's the Denver Boulder Corridor.[26:12] Yep. It is. Okay. And that's the end of the discussion. that is going to come to an end. It[26:18] It just is. I mean, I lived in South Florida where Miami was the ecosystem of all of it, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, then Palm Beach started to grow and Lauderdale started to grow and[26:29] other places around the state and they started to take back ownership of what they wanted their respective communities and regions to look like. So, as we[26:40] continue to grow in population, we're going to see a more concrete, visible presence at the legislature, and we're going to say, look, we're not just going to burden every business that comes here, you know, kind of bait and switch them with incentives and then bam, on the back end with regulatory burden, right? So, what is our identity down here? Well, on[27:05] the surface, everybody thinks, well, that's the last bastion of red Republicans, MAGA, whatever they want to call it, out there, okay, and that's what it is. Well, Pueblo is like, well, wait a minute. I don't think so. You know, u Douglas County probably wouldn't agree with that sentiment, and I don't even think El Paso County would agree with that sentiment. But more than that, they don't want to identify that way. They want to identify as a hub of one of the highest concentrations of educated professionals in the nation. Which is true. Which is true.[27:36] Yeah. Highest degree, highest number of degreed professionals, highest number of retired military[27:42] concentrations where they're looking for that next career. Okay. And they are very wellkilled, very well educated for[27:49] the most part, right? the next is our economic strong clusters. So that's aerospace, defense, cyber, advanced manufacturing, and all the derivatives that come of that. Okay.[28:00] So we're starting to get a sense for how that latches on to the Pueblo scene, which is more traditional manufacturing, long rail, CS wind, renewable energy, you know, the chemical depot out there and some of the things that are going on down there. They're, like you said, their tourism and food scene. I think it surpasses us today. Right. Then you have Douglas County which has a remarkable DoD depth. Okay. And there's quantum computing out of[28:29] Boulder corridor that is now starting to trickle down into the southeast corridor because the workforce is a little more affordable and so is business space, office space. And so there's a lot of things that they can take advantage of. And big companies like Pax 8, okay, who are based in Denver, huge company, right? They are picking little communities like Canyon City and Trinidad to set up incubation centers and they're getting great talent out of these more rural communities. Fantastic. Right. And they're incubating that talent and they're growing it and they're and they're excited and they're[29:07] passionate about it because otherwise they wouldn't have access to it. Right. Okay. They'd be on the farm tractor[29:12] somewhere or they'd be, you know, doing something with the wind company or something else. Now they have access to the highest level technologies in the world, right, through companies like Pax 8. So that's that's kind of what's happening down here. And our identity is still yet to be defined. I mean, I always ask people, what's Colorado barbecue? They're like, what? Well, you know what Kansas City barbecue is? You know what Georgia barbecue is? You know what? What's Colorado barbecue? But the same question applies to what is[29:42] Southern Colorado business? Okay. And we're still defining that, Jason. We haven't really put a pin in it[29:48] yet and said, "This is exactly who we are." But we're closer than we ever have been. And we're also more diversified than we were back in the Silicon Mountain days, right? Because that was a oneand done. If two or three started to pull the pins and leave and uproot, then they all just kind of went, you know, and collapsed, right? And then we were left with a lot of houses. we're not doing that this time, okay? We're diversifying industry sectors where there's a lot more depth and you can crosswalk to different companies and different, you know,[30:20] different places to go to work. One last question and then we'll get to the bucket. I'm in it's called LeadershipColorado Springs, El Paso County, and Regional Identity-------------------------------------------------------[30:27] Pikes Peak. It's a program where you spend 10 months learning all about the city and the various things. No. Well, and so I'm about nine months into the program and there's an observation I've had I want to run by you. I'm very curious what your perspective might be on this because it's around this idea. Yeah, I'm a native. Someone told me I'm allowed to call native if I didn't have a choice in moving here. So, I was six when my family moved here. So, natives.[30:49] Okay. Natives gonna say no. All right. That's fair. But here wasn't born here. But being in the city for a long[30:56] time and seeing this kind of identity struggle that we've had, something that kind of became apparent going through the program has been this pressure that is on our city in the sense that it holds the weight of the county and it holds the weight of the region at times. So when we think about what is Colorado Springs, it's also it's always Cara Springs, El Paso County, Southern Colorado, Pikes Creek G. We don't use common language across the board to define what we are. When you're in Denver, it's Denver. But the reality is I'm going to Red Rocks. I'm[31:30] not going to Morrison. I'm going to Denver. Like I, you know, you speak about it broadly and it feels like there's not enough of a of a of a weight to be able to kind of overcome what feels like a lot of diversification of how we talk about things because, you know, the county we rely heavily on that, right? I mean, the El Paso County, even the idea like we don't even have a local jail, is there? We have the county jail. We don't even have a city jail. Like, so there's the city and then there's the pressure of the county and then there's the pressure of the region and it all feels like we're trying to[31:59] figure it all out, but it's due to some of that confusion at times. Like, what is that? I don't know. I'm curious like do you do you see that same type of pressure that the city can't just kind of break out and just be Colorado Springs, we always have to be El Paso County, Southern Colorado, and some of these other dynamics?[32:16] That's a very good question. And it's it's an insightful question and I think one of it one of the instincts or[32:22] responses I have to that initially and not being a native I will declare purist she's a purist. So yes, exactly. Us muggles over here, not pure blood. I function well though. But I think part of it is the historical knowledge base that you all have as natives that Pueblo feels a certain way about Colorado Springs, Denver feels a certain way about Colorado Springs. And I think we've almost overcorrected in a sense and said, well, we just don't want to force ourselves upon anybody. Right. and it's overcautious. And then you add to that some of the socopolitical dynamics in our culture[33:08] today and it's really hyper sensitive about, you know, left, right, middle, whatever. And we're just this group here and we're insulated, but we're not. Okay. This is probably as an[33:22] international feel. every day is more towards a step of an international sophisticated city as it was the day before. Yeah. Whereas a lot of cities are either going[33:33] away from that or they're going more into it. And so that is you're right. Your instincts are right. There isn't this declaration that we are Colorado Springs. But it's because I think they had their hands slapped so many times by PuebloNS and people that live in Fountain and other communities that were really trying to establish your own identity. I mean, remember Pueblo was going to be the state capital. Yeah. Right. So, there's a little butt hurtness down there, you know,[34:03] and so, and I get it and God bless the history of it all, right? But I think there comes a point in our community where we do plant that flag, Jason, and we say, "This is who we are. this is the region, you know, and Colorado Springs is kind of the epicenter of that. And I don't think anybody within the business realm would argue that, right?[34:24] Even in Douglas County because they feel kind of ostracized from the Denver Jefferson County scene up there, right? they like the identity of being in a larger, more recognizable brand of Denver, but they also like the intimacy and the lack of transactional business relationships. It's more relational. It's very relational here. Y and so that's one of our value propositions. It's still very relational down here, whereas it's very transactional up there. And you feel it. It's hard to do business up there for me. We've tried to expand up there and[35:00] every time I dabble in it, I'm like, and then I retreat. It's sticky. Yeah. But I think we're we're evolving continually. And I think that process[35:12] will continue to play out. And that's probably a function of time. Yeah. More than anything else. And I think some very big wins and successes like[35:19] Olympic City USA, you know, that's a Colorado Springs thing. But City for Champions, when you take the components of that, right, the stadiums and, you know, the downtown arena and now the visitors center up at the Northgate, now you're starting to speak a broader language and it's more inclusive. So, and it's accessible. And it's accessible.[35:42] Yeah. Yeah. We can actually touch that. Yes. It's not as So, it's evolving. Yeah. That's great. Thank you. That'sBucket Question: The Skill He Thought He Had Mastered-----------------------------------------------------[35:49] helpful insight on that front. All right. Let's jump into the bucket. Okay. Let's pull a question. So curious[35:56] on your insights and your experiences here. That's one. Okay. So to read it out[36:03] loud. Read it out loud. Okay. What's one skill you thought you had completely mastered early on only to[36:08] realize later on you were still a complete novice? media. Didn't see didn't see that coming, did you? media is going through what most institutions in in American culture are going through. It's going through an upheaval. it's it's trying to reposition and reorganize itself as an institution a professional institution. Medicine's gone through this, education's gone through this, and they're still going through it in many ways. most industries have in some way, shape, or form been touched by the reinvention of their industry, and that's not even withstanding AI.[36:47] Yeah. Okay. I'm talking about the younger generation of employees are challenging[36:54] every conventional wisdom that our predecessors put in place. Okay. As to[36:59] why that's there. Why do we do it that way? And there's a lot of good in that, right? It's not all bad. There's some traditions and conventions that were there for a reason and they ultimately find out why through trial and error and consequence, right? Some are just there because they were developed out of anarchal mindsets and thinking and they need to be broken down in a more global economy. Right? So those conventions are being challenged constantly. when you think you're a media expert. I mean, yes, I'm an entrepreneur and I know how P&L's work and I know that, you know,[37:35] some days it's beans and rice and some days it's filet minion, but I also know that the tactical elements in the strategic elements of media are going to constantly shift and move because you consume information than you do, differently than you do, and so on and so on down the line. Your kids absorb data and information differently. And so we got to reach them where they are. We're the only omnimedia company in Colorado right now. That has radio, television, print, digital, web, streaming, podcast, and so on. Only we're the only one that has them all together. Wow. Under one umbrella. Yeah.[38:13] Okay. You have TV stations that have websites and maybe something else or radio component to it like KRDO does.[38:21] but they don't have an outlet, a me a print outlet. Wow. You got the Gazette that has print, digital, web, but they don't have a television, radio presence. Okay, it's different. So, we're the only media[38:33] company that has tied all those ends together in the back end. Okay, and made a storefront that people can actually access and say, look, I like to give my message through radio or television or print. I don't want to have to choose. I want to go to the doors that I want to go to. So, that's one thing that we learned from our customer base was that[38:54] they wanted the ability to choose which medium they used that they thought was the most powerful because most agencies don't have a clue. Yeah. About what their client wants. They just[39:06] don't. They're buying media packages and they're doing analytics and all the goofy stuff behind the scenes and the creative scene and it's all, don't get me started on agencies, but it's it's lazy work, okay? If they come out into the universe and they recognize that these platforms are all available to them and they can shop one or three or all of them, okay, they don't have to buy the whole package, but they can cherrypick their medium because some messages don't get across well in print, but they do very well in audiovisisual.[39:43] Okay? Some value propositions come across very sloppy on screen, but they look great in digital format. Okay? And you have to kind of sort that out. And that's where my marketing background comes in, right? Is those fundamentals I'm applying to the media disciplines and helping customers rise their message performance, their positioning performance, their brand equity and memorability, what they call CP value, which is competitive positioning value. and helping them understand that you can craft things to actually create[40:18] attraction and attachment to the audiences you're seeking to connect with. But you have you don't Somebody came in and told you have to buy TV. I've had them tell me that before. Yeah. You have to or you're invisible. Yeah. Okay. Well, not anymore. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Some like if you're Phil Long[40:39] Ford all day long. Yeah. Okay. All day long. television. It's visual appeal. You're selling product.[40:45] Okay. Big, fancy, colorful product. Yeah. Yes. Television. Okay.[40:51] the volume of television you did before in the 2000s or the 90s? No, probably not because now you got this digital apparatus out there. And that digital apparatus is allowing for the same things. Video, dynamic advertising, moving things on the screen, right? So, you can also use[41:13] that. The days of pay-per-click, I think, are dying. Thank you. Thank God. I was ready for that to die a long time ago. But that to me was a complete shell[41:25] game. Okay. And the analytic goobers behind the scenes determine who won and who lost[41:31] based on how much you paid. That was like the water. You never knew what your pricing was from day to day. How much am I going to pay per click now? Right. and they're well-intentioned, but again, formulating responses to your advertisers's need, that company's need, aerospace and defense contractor does not need to use North Magazine ever. Okay. And I would never attempt to even sell it to them. Yeah. Okay. Or have my sales force do that.[41:58] Yeah. What they do need is to relate and identify as a corporate citizen of Colorado Springs as part of the larger[42:05] ecosystem of employers of people that are supporting people and industry not only locally but around the world. That's what they need to do and that's the Business Digest. Well, the Business[42:17] Digest has five outlets, okay? Radio, television, blah blah. So, which[42:22] one? Well, they don't need a TV ad. They probably don't need a radio ad. What they need is a nice brand identity saying we love southern Colorado. Yeah. We believe in this region and the[42:35] education that's coming out from the universities from the K through 12 folks that are looking for, you know, lower level entry level jobs. We are confident that they are listening to us and identifying what we need as employers and we're going to support that and therefore we're going to put our flag out there too. as a novice coming up, you know, as a novice in media, I think you're right.AI, Journalism, and Beginner’s Mindset--------------------------------------[43:01] There's always this evolution in your industry where it's growing, changing, evolving, and it's not just your consumer, but it's also the product that's growing, changing, and evolving. How does AI impact that? It's got to be a huge game changer for you. And we're all still noviceses at AI. Well, AI, remember, is the aggregation of all that information and assimilation into strands of thought and reason and logic and so forth. So, and we've got a guy in town who I know you guys know[43:32] well and Jonathan Lebert others like him that are students of this stuff and so they are and thank God because they understand kind of the history of this and it's not new really. It's just new to us on the ground floor, right at the entry level. I think in news media, it's easy today to identify a piece that's been written by AI. Very easy. Okay. Oh, yeah.[43:59] There's visual signals, you know, the mdash. Oh, yeah. And some other things. But there's also cadence components. What I'm trying to do is celebrize my writers to be thought leaders in their various categories. Okay? and to for them to earn their trust every time they put out a piece by saying, "I have done my homework. I've done my research. I have done the background on this. I know the story and this is what it is." Yeah. And it's less my opinion about what should or shouldn't be done about that,[44:30] but this is what's happening. Do with it what you will, but this is what's happening. Yeah. So, that's the difference[44:36] as far as aesthetics and graphics and everything else. I mean, we're putting those things to work for us on the graphic design and the visual side and the video creation side, all that. We're not going to get behind that eight-ball. Okay? We're going to link arms with that technology and say, "Okay, this is how we're going to go out and utilize these tools to advance our customers experience, to advance their prospects experience, and to create real attraction and stickiness to those deliverables." Because right now, you[45:08] know, it's a it's the wild west, but we're not going to be driven by it. Rather, we're going to drive it. So, in that kind of same vein of like this novice thinking, anytime when we're[45:19] going through like massive disruption, which we're going through, right? Just upheaval. You've been through the upheaval of media and what's happened like that over the last decade or so, we're going through it again. That beginner's mindset is sometimes the thing that allows you to see maybe something that the expert is going to miss. No doubt. What's where do you find you lean into the beginner's mindset? Like what's something that you really try to hone in on or where you really feel like, yep, this is an area right now where I really feel a beginner's mindset?[45:47] I think it's understanding how to take broad-based knowledge base, okay, and make it relatable to individuals that don't always have PhDs or don't always have master's degrees, right? I mean the vast majority of American workforce doesn't. So how can we make this instrument more attractive and attainable and accessible through that apparatus? And I think Jonathan is one of those guys that we're kind of drafting his thought process as well by saying you need to just go out there and experiment and see where those openings are because we don't know. The writers,[46:32] their first instinct was, "Well, I'll put in a topic. I'll put in some data points, what they call prompts today, I guess, and we'll pump out a story in 30 seconds." Okay. Well, first time our[46:45] editors saw that, they said, "no." Okay. You just wasted some time because[46:51] we're not doing this. There's no soul. There's no feeling in it and there's no real knowledge and understanding because you're not con you're you're not connecting the essential pieces of the story, the spirit, the background, the understanding, the history, and where you're trying to lead the reader in terms of understanding why this is even in front of them, right? Why are we talking about the horizon plant out at the airport? Well, there's reasons for that and there are multiple layers of that story. Yeah. local news reported two layers.[47:25] The digest is going to report probably 15 layers of that story. Okay? And you can do with it as you wish. But the novice component for us was wow, we can literally do anything with this in terms of the visual presentation and the things that accompany it make it more relatable. So, graphic design team, go play[47:51] experiment. Writers, no, no, no, no, no. you want to do some research and background and factchecking. There's resources for that, but they're not just chats up. It's a good starting point, but then you got to fact check your AI. Yeah. And it's good for automating[48:08] emails and automating processes that are tedious in the media industry. Well, it AI doesn't handle nuance. No. And it feels like the word that like that's the piece that you're also really bringing, right? Going 15 layers deep is dealing with the nuance of the story. And I think in the sensationalization and the headline and the rage bait and the clickbait, there's no nuance in rage bait. I've never heard that. And so like there that's what I find and often people are looking for is I want the nuance story. I want to be able to sit down and actually have a conversation or be able to listen to someone or dive deeper. I think that's[48:44] where long form podcasting has become more fascinating because you can have a more nuanced conversation over three hours and you can and half an hour slash thing. So overall I feel like in general the people are looking for that nuance. Well, they're looking for authenticity, too, Jason. You know, the hyper polished media guy, with the ding teeth, you know, and the and the perfectly parted haircut and, you know, trust, right? I mean, this is what's going to what rebuilds trust. And I find again, nuance does that because it shows a level of expertise or understanding or the ability to hold two things true at[49:21] the same time, like heaven forbid, we can hold perspective on something that exists, right? It exists and but it requires a little bit more from you to be able to gain that. That's correct. Yes. All right, let's dive into another question number two.Bucket Question: The Genius Idea That Became a Dumpster Fire------------------------------------------------------------[49:33] All right, so this says, what's a genius idea you had for your business that in reality was an absolute dumpster[49:40] fire? that's funny. And describe the glorious failure. Okay. dumpster fires. That a genius idea that turned into a jump[49:51] dumpster fire. I want to know the genius piece first. The genius idea was buying the and it's not a dumpster fire today, but it was a steep climb. Was buying the digest or the journal and the indie. Oh, I bet. At the same time. Yeah. And you've got this left faction over[50:12] here and this kind of more business focused faction over here. And they're like, what are you doing? You know, and who are you to tell us what we should be thinking or not? And that was the original demise of the indie when the other guys owned it. Y so for me it was probably just stacking it all on and saying we can do it guys, right? And so it created a dumpster fire internally. Okay, we scaled too quick, too fast, too vertical. Okay, and then we had some attrition and it was hard. was, you know, we ran into some financial[50:55] barriers, right? Because I'm like, "Oh, those are really big bills now coming in, you know?" I bet. And I'm like, "Oh, jeez. I think we just bit off a little too much too soon and we could have scaled this a little more strategically." So, that was the[51:14] dumpster fire wouldn't have been seen on the other side on the consumer side so much as it was felt and seen by us internally. And but God loved these people. I have just about a 100% retention rate of those we really wanted to retain, right? And the ones that needed to fly needed to fly. And so that was the blessing and the silver lining in it. Now we're settling into a pattern and rhythm of financial reliability. And now it's almost time to start innovating and scaling again, but not quite. And I have an agreement with my[51:51] team that says if I go to the mountain and come back with too much, okay, you have every right to say enough for now. Let us master this. You're sitting in a room with two visionaries here. You've got our full support to go to the mountain. To go to the mountain. So yeah. So with your team, I always find this to be I mean I guess this is my trade kicking in with your team. You buy the indie and the business journal. You come back to the office and say, "Oh, by the way, what happens in that moment?" I had been drip campaigning that with my[52:32] team, my core team for about six months because I almost had a sense it was going to happen. Really? No, I'm not clairvoyant. I So, you were already at the mountain. I was at definitely at the mountain and[52:43] I thought and we were at the digest we were already running laps around the journal and I thought okay it's probably a function of time before one of these just kind of goes away and it did. I mean I didn't have 100% I mean these guys are very wealthy individuals so they could float this for a very long time. I was not that guy, right?[53:04] we definitely had a long runway to say, "Guys, at some point, and I was very transparent with my team. I said, at one point, we're going to be the news outlet of record in the region, and here's how." So,[53:24] in as much as that was a pipe dream, it started to manifest itself, and I'm not into the manifestation thing. I'm just saying it started to materialize in the sense that it came together by opportunity and preparedness for that opportunity. Whereas prior to that, you know, we were going to be us versus them. Okay. This town's not big enough for us[53:46] versus them. Yeah. Okay. Not really. Not even know who us is, as we previously said, right?[53:52] Amen, brother. Start the problem. Yes. Don't start there. Don't start there. start figuring that out. But we have to have some, I think, ability to communicate that with your staff and trust that they're going to process it well. And they'll tell you because I gave them permission. I said, "Guys, if you think this is a bad idea, you got to tell me now." Yeah. Because at some point, I'm going to write a check and they're going to[54:22] somebody's going to give me something. I'm gonna go buy something because right now we're looking at Northern Denver papers as well. but they told me unequivocally, do not buy that right now. We've got to master this first. Okay. Of course, my wife is on board with that and everything else, too, because you get spread too thin.[54:42] You get too ambitious, big for your britches, and we don't want to do that, right? We're in the service business at the end of the day, okay? We serve the community by giving it information and news and data and resources and facts and information they can use to create stronger foundations for them business. Yeah, that's why we do this. So don't forget that. So they always remind me of that, right? Remember why we're doing this. Oh yeah. Yeah, I said that, didn't I?[55:13] So it's a it's you know as entrepreneurs and you guys can relate. You always see the bright shiny things, right? Oh yeah. you know, and it's easy to get distracted. So, you need those people behind you to say, "Not now." And that's[55:27] fortunately what we've done, I think, relatively well. But, yeah, that dumpster fire definitely kicked in. I mean, there were a lot of sleepless nights. How am I going to make this work? Even us just transitioning because ourChange, Staff Shakeups, and Entrepreneurial Teams-------------------------------------------------[55:41] structure before was BRW tax and accounting and then HR branches and in August we merged, right? and when we merged in August, it was interesting because like you, we had been seeding. How long had we been working on the merger? Nine months. Well, before you came on board, it was nine months with you. so yeah, about a year we had been working with our whole team, involving them. They were participative. I mean, we weren't even seeding, we were drowning them in the merger. And we still had team members who threw their hands in the air and said, "This is too much change. I can't do this. I have to exit now." And we had[56:21] a pretty big shakeup on our staff because of the change mechanism. And I find that to be a driver. It's both bad and good because you're going through a massive change and now you've got the staff shake up that really shakes up the change and unsettles the foundation for a little while. And you know, like you, we're almost a year past merger and we're starting to feel that some earth underneath you. Yes. That settling. And like you now, my brain is going, "Okay, well, what's next? What do we get to do? What's next?" And Jason is too. And both[56:57] Jason and I are the two big visionaries of the team. And we're always thinking about what's next and what can we create together. But if you had your visionary way now that you're feeling the ground beneath you, how would you shake up your team's world? Well, I do pretty much every day. So much so that they asked me not to be in the editorial meetings anymore. so it's a true story actually. And they were very professional and polite about it. They're like, you know, why don't you just do what you do really well and go get that P&L? Yeah. go and paint pictures and illustrate and like I said, go to[57:35] the mountain and innovate because that is what I do in this context. And so they are I gave them permission to do that unabashedly. I said, "Look, we're going to grow and I'm going to push you to grow and you're going to push me or pull me to grow responsibly." So that tension is good. It has. Okay. So don't be afraid of that. Oh, we're not. I'm I'm married to my[58:00] tension. I can't be afraid of it. Same. Same. But I can relate. Very Yeah. So whereas I am like, "Yeah, give me a crayon." you know, but it's[58:15] it has to be a two-way street with the team, especially your senior team. And you have to say, "Look, guys, we're not going to always agree." And, you know, we can even argue about it, but we're going to do it respectfully, and we're going to do this in a way that says, "I'm I'm going to try to take in some deep listening on this, and so are you, okay? As best we can, without getting spiritual or weird about it. We're just going to say, "Look, I'm I'm going to sit here and I'm going to hear I'm going to try to hear you and understand your logic and rationale because now my[58:47] impulses, everything in me says go now." Yeah. Okay. Or you're going to miss it. And[58:52] that's what was happening when the digest or when the journal and the indie were for sale. Okay. It was then or[58:59] never. Somebody else would have owned it right now and I'd still have a competitor out there. Mhm. So they got that and I was able to bring them to that conversation and say this is how we're going to proceed. Do you agree?[59:13] Yeah. You know, let's be careful about it. Yeah. Sure. Okay. Then it bubbles up and it becomes too[59:18] much for them and then it bursts and we lost some people. Yeah. As a result of that, how'd that impact the business?[59:26] I think as a owner operator, and you guys can relate, you always love your people. Yeah, you really do. You connect with them. You know their quirks. You know their strengths and weaknesses and everything in between. And you don't want to see anybody go. But what I'm learning as I'm getting older, and this has more to do with age and just being willing to accept that I can't control everything. Yeah. Okay. that person's saying, "I can't do this."[59:55] Yeah. And that's okay. You know, I would venture to say I think my team would agree. I Jason, I'd[1:00:02] love to hear your perspective on this, but I would venture to say because of what we went through and us losing our team members, while they were wonderful, they were absolutely great team members, our team is actually better and stronger because of it. That's a fact. Our new team members are freaking[1:00:19] incredible. And I feel like our operations are running smoother. The people who were here before, they're wonderful. They were, you know, they were risk adverse, right? And everybody's allowed to be. But I think the people who are on our team now are a little bit less risk adverse, which opens us up to a little bit more opportunity and our team on board with saying, "Okay, well, what's next?" do you feel that way about your team? Sure. you can hit a wall and they'll kind of relate and understand a little better you know when you hit those walls of[1:00:57] challenge or scalability or whatever you happen to be going through right now I mean we've had you know financial movement inside the organization where you know we had to move from every week getting distributions to getting every other week to sometimes every month right and now we're starting to come into a more predictable cycle so those people that weren't able to handle that entrepreneurial ride right on the back of my motorcycle you know without a helmet without a helmet where you know and you know I'm running and gunning at the[1:01:30] cliff because I'm evil can evil right and they're like I I just can't do this I got a family I got I'm too conservative in my thought process that way not politically just I'm just I'm not that riskaverse or I'm not that risk able so they tend to stay back and then I kind of have adopted this philosophy of that's okay, you know, you're you're all right. Yeah, you're all right. you do you and bless and release kind of thing and you say, "Hey, it's it's going to be okay. Maybe there's another time downstream or intersect again." maybe[1:02:07] there's not, you know, maybe you do need a really static concrete existence. Yeah. And those are harder and harder to find. But[1:02:18] there's jobs out there for them. Oh, there are in that regard. But the entrepreneurs are not easy to work for. What's your take on that, Jason? Entrepreneurs not being easy to work for. Oh, yeah. yeah, I think I've seen it in a couple different contexts throughout my career where people don't genuinely like change and change is hard. It's very hard. And so it's one of those things where I think often a job is meant to be this kind of security thing. And a lot of people look at a job as a sense of security because it's a source of identity. It's a source of doing in[1:02:57] the world. It's a source of provision. and so anytime something gets in the way of that security, there is a preference for the security over riding the wave and being able to get through the change. Mhm. The change isn't necessarily going to mean you lose your job. It just means you have to go through a change. And it's it's hard. I think a lot of people are very kind of adverse to that. And sometimes it's personality style there. There's that piece where that's a key element. But something that's interesting to me is that the way that you're leading, one of the things that[1:03:32] I'm hearing is that it's setting a culture that then is coming through in the journalism. because if you can't have a nuance conversation with your leadership team and you can't have a nuance conversation with your staff, how are they going to go out and be a journalist that can do the same thing? So it does it's a great example of something that starts at the top of how you're leading and setting things up so that then when they're going out and doing things they're bringing that same cultural element of having the nuance[1:04:01] diving in really understanding the thing being able to pull back being able to look at it from a lot of different angles have meaningful conversation around it and then produce something really great and I appreciate that observation and I think what I'm seeing from them is hey what about or what if right Yeah.[1:04:17] From people that I would have considered to be very, you know, blocked in and this is what they do and that's all what they do. But I also had to accept that entrepreneurs, you know, we can do beans and rice one week and we can be totally fine with it. Yeah. Okay. And got that t-shirt many times[1:04:37] and we can do filet minion on the other side. And a lot of these people just can't. They want more sustainability, predictability. They want the hamburgers every night. Yeah. And that's okay. I mean, we're wired different. That's all.[1:04:49] Well, and thank God more people aren't entrepreneurs. I mean, if there were more entrepreneurs in the world, I think that could be an issue, right? I mean, I think you're right of understanding where you fit. And I I think at the end of the day, the core of this is someone not really knowing where they fit into the thing. And if you don't know where you fit, then that's going to be a lot harder. But if you can accept like who you are and how you like to do things and how you like to do work, it's far easier to know how to navigate kind of those waters. I totally agree. And I have a 30-year[1:05:19] veteran who's probably prime for retirement right now age- wise, but he loves this. And he loves it because it's it's it's igniting things that haven't been ignited in him as a publisher. Wow. Okay. as a as a an individual who's been[1:05:38] in this chair. Fran. Yeah. Oh, I love him. I mean, my heart.[1:05:45] This is a neat guy. Okay. He's brilliant. He's very bright. He's very intuitive.[1:05:51] He knows people. He knows, you know, how communities work. And he hasn't, I don't think, been given the permission of somebody like me saying, "Go play. That's your field." Yeah. Okay. go play, have fun. Here the here's the dollars and cents[1:06:08] that we got to make. But he's he said he said it perfectly. He said we're still a startup and he's okay with that. Yeah. I think he thrives in that though. Yeah, he does. Not all of them do.[1:06:23] No, but because the writers need paychecks, right? and I get that and so do sales staff. But it was probably the nicest best thing he could have said to me was this is a startup. Okay, let's go. I love that. Isn't that cool?[1:06:42] That is That's fantastic. All right, let's do one more. Land the plane. Land the plane, baby. All right, here weBucket Question: Imposter Syndrome----------------------------------[1:06:49] go. What was the last When was the last time you felt like an imposttor in your own business? And how do you quiet that inner critic? Oh, wow. That's a good one. an[1:07:01] impostor. I think anytime somebody gets in front of a camera or in front of a microphone, you have to be honest with yourself. You may be comfortable in doing it like we are, but you're also very conscientious of somebody who's on the other side of that listening to that or watching that and you're thinking, gosh, how do I not ostracize or piss him off or whatever that might be? So, that aspect of it feels sometimes[1:07:32] like an impostor, you know? Yeah. And I'll say this, you know, when I when I first started the Fox 21 gig, I[1:07:39] thought that, you know, I'm like a TV boy. You know, you look at me, mom. Whatever. Whatever, dude. I mean, I can't take myself seriously anymore. I just can't I mean, I know what I look like. I have a mirror at home. I know what I sound like. but I also know that I have a deep, profound passion to help people get up Yeah. and succeed and see the world is[1:08:06] not all busted, broken down, and that we can do things if we work together and build something stronger and all those good things. So, that's really why I'm out there, right? and to create more[1:08:21] interest and integrity around the profession of journalism and you know mass media distribution and information and one of my external loft goals stretch goals is I want to read this question again is to create the smartest communities in the country the most informed most in truly informed and dialed in and aware business communities in the country. Silicon Valley did that really well for a while. Yeah. Okay. And that's why you saw Whoa. Right. we can do that here. We[1:09:01] have the genetic composition for that here with all the different industry sectors and participants and the education components that are here. We have that genetic composition to do be that very informed, very almost epicenter for thought and reasoning and process around these industry sectors. Okay, military, defense, aerospace, defense, you know, cyber security, all that stuff. We can do that here. It's it's here. It's littered on the ground. Yeah. And now we're starting to put a put a[1:09:29] fence around it and say maybe that's our identity is we are institutionally a great place for innovative minds and people that want to create and solve problems and yes we're very wellinformed. Why?[1:09:42] Because our news organizations are well informed. Yeah. But the imposttor component comes from just literally the aesthetic[1:09:50] of seeing myself on television. Let's change this question up. What about a pinch me moment? I mean, you just said it yourself. You own thePinch-Me Moments and Neutral Journalism---------------------------------------[1:10:01] state's only omni media company. There's got to be a pinch me moment somewhere in building that and sitting in this chair and reflecting and there's got to be a moment where you're like, "Oh my gosh, what the hell did I do?" Well, there's a lot of that actually. What the hell did I do? but honestly I don't I don't take myself that seriously. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't. I mean it's easy to play modest but[1:10:33] when you know who you are and your limitations and your liabilities as well as your gifts. you'd be foolish to not take into consideration the balance of the whole equation. Right. Yeah. And so I I literally cannot take myself too seriously because it is a[1:10:51] serious business. But when I when I look at the polished and groomed, articulate, you know, Rush Limbos of the world or whomever you tend to think is that person or group in that category as polished delivers of information. Yeah. I don't see myself as[1:11:11] some do and I think it's funny but I also see now that's impostor. That's imposter. That's imposter. That's exactly right. Yeah. So I just don't and I think the pinch[1:11:24] me moments are I don't know. I that's not what I'm grubbing for. That's not what I'm reaching for. Just because you're not grubbing it doesn't mean you walk into a room like[1:11:36] my gosh am I really here? This is really cool. Well, keep in mind my background almost desensitized me. Oh, that's true. To some of that. Yeah, you really screwed yourself there. I screwed myself there because I'm not overly impressed with too many people. Yeah. Right. And therefore, I'm no not overly impressed with myself[1:11:56] moments. Oh, sure. I mean, I'm not self- effacing to the point of what's wrong with that guy? But I mean, yes, you're right. I mean, I've been in conversations that I absolutely had no business being in, right? I'm sure you have. And I'm like, "Oh, that is phenomenal." Actually, that is really cool that I'm here. And what a privilege. And just a moment of witness to take it in and be a part of that solution or whatever it is. Yeah. And to have the ability to communicate with people that are in fact shaping our[1:12:27] region. Yeah. Right. almost not on speed dial but certainly close to where I can get a[1:12:34] hold of people and say help us understand this a little better, right? Or give us a clearer picture of what this is what's happening here and they take me seriously. Yeah. Right. Cuz I'm tennis boy out there, you know, now well I'm not dressed up today[1:12:49] but you know you know what I'm saying. You know and that's the difference. You know, I think something that again an observation that is in that and I think this is actually a part of what I've just personally have seen journalism often to be is a neutralizing factor. Right? So often you have three forces are in play. You have an active, you have a passive, and then you have a neutral. And what you're talking about is being able to sit in the neutral area. It's not amazing active like I'm this wonderful thing. It's not, oh, I'm super down here and horrible. It's some[1:13:24] neutral. And I think in journalism and just in the culture that you're building, we need more of that type of neutralizing force to this world, right? Because when we sit in one or the other, that's what creates these weird tension points of a dualistic way of understanding things. But it's the neutral perspective that's often the one that's the most important because it's it's the it's calm. It's in the middle. It's not this one thing or another. And so to hold some of that neutralizing element around yourself of like, yep, this is it. I deserve to be here. That's[1:13:55] great. It's not wonderful. I'm not great, but I'm doing it. I have a service. That's what I hear. And I think that to me is what's inspiring about[1:14:02] what's happening and what's driving all this forward is that there is a culture of journalists that are being led that way to bring just the story without the active piece behind it of sensationalizing or the passive piece of it not being good enough. Right. AI slop. Right. frankly and this thing that can be in the middle and that's what I believe we need more of in this world is kind of that third perspective of things that kind of neutralizes something that's kind of and I appreciate that and that's what we are working for is and my[1:14:36] writers tell us all the time we're having fun. Yeah. You know I mean what they actually are enjoying themselves again whereas a[1:14:43] newsroom a traditional newsroom that was hard to do. Look at that. Yeah. Well, neutral seems like a hard place to[1:14:49] live, too. It's can be. I mean, taking one end of the spectrum seems like the easy out, right? It's easy to go either to either polar side, but when you stay in the middle and neutral, it's a really hard place to live. I mean, look at Switzerland. They're always getting for being neutral. That's funny. But great chocolate.[1:15:15] Great time pieces, too. scientists, they got some good things, but it's hard to bite your tongue and not give your opinion because as humans, we're ingrained. We're built to put that out there. And we've been trained and disciplined, frankly, to believe that there isn't an intrinsic truth. Yes. You know, math is math. Uhhuh. But some people want to argue it isn't. Yeah. Okay. Now, to me, that's a red herring. I'm I'm a big fan of the seven logical fallacies, okay? And understanding how[1:15:47] they play a role in our business because people generally want to make the world fit their worldview and paradigm when in fact you're a participant in this. Okay? And there are realities around you and perspectives that don't always equal. They're not binary. Okay? And there is variations within those two polar opposites. And it doesn't mean the polar opposite is wrong. Okay? It just means and I'm not saying two rights can be right. I'm saying that sometimes there is absolute wrong. Okay? It is a bad thing to do to traffic children and women and men in sex trades or work[1:16:31] camps. Yeah. That's bad. Yep. Okay. from our perspective here, my[1:16:37] perspective, that's a bad thing and my writer's perspective, that's a bad thing. So, we agree on that. So, we[1:16:42] don't have to go there necessarily. But we can take on controversial hot topics and say, "Look, here's the rationale of this. Okay, here's how they got there." Yeah. Right. And here's the rationale of this, and here's how they got there. The fallacy here is that this is not[1:17:02] based in arithmetic fact. It's pipe dreaming or it's nice ideological okay fantasy in some cases. But we're not going to get into the realms of where what you think about whether it's genders or anything else. We're not going to get into that. That's that's a realm that I don't think media[1:17:28] has any business being in right now. Okay. Or education or anything else. I think that is individuals trying to find[1:17:35] their way in the world. Yep. Okay. Absolutely. And frankly, I'm trying to find my way[1:17:40] in the world and I'm a perfectly right down the middle heterosexual white male doing his thing out there. Right. And so I'm still trying to figure it out. I get it. That longing for meaning and purpose and attachment to something you can say this is what I believe in. Okay. So, I think we can have those civil discourses, but I also think that[1:17:58] at times we need to say, folks, this is fundamentally a bad idea. Yeah.[1:18:03] Okay. That's fair. And it's going to run us into the ground financially as a community or as a[1:18:09] culture or as a school system or a football team for that matter. Yeah. Yeah. What's your litmus test on determiningFacts, Business Journalism, and Hard Truths-------------------------------------------[1:18:17] that perspective, that stance community? This is a bad idea. Fact. facts. Yeah. And how do you evaluate those facts? So, a lot of them are financial.[1:18:30] Okay. And you rely on economists and financial experts who really understand[1:18:36] how math works out in the projected form. Okay? In the perspectus form. They're not just 1 plus 1 is two, right? They're thinking long division in math that well, at least I can't do. Okay? That's what spreadsheets are for. That's exactly right. But it's not,[1:18:55] you know, some things are just intrinsically true that this is a bad idea. Where it gets sloppy in media is where you say, "Yeah, but this individual's got a history of really playing it safe over here or really going too far this way." And now it becomes political, okay? Or a personality profile, right? Well, if Y said it, it means everything. Or the other guy says if Y says it, it means nothing. Yeah. Right. Because there's no history or evidence of that being successful.[1:19:28] So if Y says it, what we're going to say is, okay, Y, back it up. What's the math? What's the science? What's the data suggest? Because there's probably some really good reasoning. There's some veneer reasoning that you need to appeal to the populace to. Yeah. Yeah. Then there's people that are thinking a little bit deeper and more critically and they're saying, "How can we attach ourselves to what you're proposing?"[1:19:52] Yeah. Okay. How can we buy into that? And then there's others who say that the math[1:19:57] doesn't pencil. Okay. This is not going to work. It's a great idea,[1:20:02] but it's not going to work. So, let's have that out here. And that's part[1:20:08] of the role of journalism is to have that conversation out in the open without demonizing everybody that has a thought. Yeah. Right. I suppose that's the beautiful part of[1:20:18] of business related journalism is it always goes back to the maneuvers all does. I mean even us running the business. Yeah. That mission, vision and[1:20:29] values. Yeah. Absolutely. boy wholeheartedly.[1:20:35] but then you look at other reporting. I mean do you guys get into much social reporting? You know, I mean, like, do you headlines, war, you know, all this stuff? Not the war, the war's impact on these industries. Well, oil. I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's Well, not just the price of oil, but the DoD contractors.[1:20:59] Well, exactly. That are here, right? I mean, right now, everybody's writing each other big checks. I was the next administration that could dry up and evaporate pretty quickly. Yeah. so let's let's look long term[1:21:13] here, guys. Right. Let's look long term so we can sustain through the drought periods, right? So we're going to challenge people socially on that level. Yeah. Okay. Whether or not you think you[1:21:27] know XYZ topic should be taught in schools. Okay. That's not a place for[1:21:32] us. Okay. What we will say in north and in the insider which are our[1:21:39] business toconsumer publications and outlets those are more where we can talk about topical societal cultural dynamics that are playing out in our in real time and we can get thought processes from people that have experienced the hardships or the glories of that thought process. Yeah.[1:21:57] Okay. And we can present that information as an anecdote, as a point of reference. That's all it is. It's not[1:22:04] the end- all beall. It's a point of reference that this person was able to be effective in this particular environment. This person was not. Okay. And why? What's the difference? Okay.[1:22:16] so not everything is an absolute because as we've talked about earlier, there's different levels of intellectual capacity and understanding and exposure. And it's it's not a fault issue. It's just merely exposure and the fact that this is the lane you're in right now. So can we foster as many people forward as possible?[1:22:39] Yeah, I think we can. So there. So, I mean, with that said,Where to Find Colorado Media Group----------------------------------[1:22:45] where can people go to read this stuff, to begin engaging, to really kind of start to come into this ecosystem? I appreciate that. Colorado Media Group.com is the first doorway. So, you'll see all the properties on that page and then[1:23:04] you can go to the individual properties, the businessto business sector, which is the business digest, and that has all the different platforms on it. or you can go to North or SoCo Insider North and Colorado Springs together now because we're doing 12 months. did that make sense by the way? No. Okay. Not quite. So there's a magazine out there called Colorado Springs. It's[1:23:28] been in the community for 30 plus years. It was owned by Vicky Diamond and Sue Hennon and now this gentleman named Mike Reagan bought it and he and I are now partnering together because North was every other month for six months, right?[1:23:39] Okay. He was four times a year. Okay. So, what we did is bolted on two more editions to his publication and put him[1:23:46] in the opposite months that were not live. So, now it's effectively 12 months, okay,[1:23:51] of the sim very similar content. Yeah, different brands, but it's very similar content, same editors, same designers in same general philosophy of telling storytelling about our region. So, that was very cool.[1:24:04] great publisher, very relationship intensive guy, good guy. so those places you'll be able to see them and you know, North and Colorado Springs are more of a luxury lifestyle kind of, you know, higher income demographic, generally speaking, higher education level. The other is more of a community magazine, not necessarily lesser. It's just different. It talks about sports, arts, economy, of outdoor life, food and beverage, and the things that bring it together. Yeah. So there. So those are your publications. You've[1:24:38] got a podcast. You have Fox 21. That's a segment.[1:24:43] It's a segment. Okay. Yeah. And what do you guys talk about on the segment? That's all business. It's all business. Yeah. It's called the business Fox 21[1:24:50] business insider. And Craig and Abby host it every Monday morning and they I go in there and that's where the imposttor syndrome kind of came in early. I was like, what the hell am I doing here? I mean, these two are pros and then you go, you know, so let me tell you about some business. But, they are they're wonderful. They're fun. They're playful. They know exactly what they're doing. They're total pros. And so, they make it easy for me to disseminate information about, you know, this business is expanding or this wire product project or this aerospace company's doing this and make it[1:25:24] interesting. and so the podcast yeah I'm on Salem and Cumulus so you can listen to those and then we have podcast on iHeart and Apple and it's just true north is for the north side and then business digest radio for the business digest soClosing-------[1:25:43] you are incredible Durk I am blown away by your tenacity your energy and your enthusiasm for Colorado Springs Pikes Peak region southern Colorado whatever we're calling it today. Whatever our identity is, we'll figure that out. We'll get there on the next genonic slanch. But thank you so much for joining us. This was an honor. A privilege. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. This is fun. It is. And I'm excited. I'm so glad that you took over the publication and you're representing Colorado Springs business well as it should and it's[1:26:21] needed for a really long, long time. And I agree. I can say for all of us, at least Savian's thrilled to be a part of it. So, thank you for inviting us in. Thank you for having us. All right. Well,[1:26:33] cheers everybody. This is Show Me Yours yet again. We have been wooed by another community leader and entrepreneur. Stay tuned for our next one where we're going to be talking with Chris Will Helme, a local Colorado employment law attorney. And we're really going to turn the conversation from, you know, publication and media to all of the shitty things people do at work. Until next time. Until next time we are show yours.
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